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 Post subject: Rod Bearings
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:23 pm 
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Is there any other source for these half-shell bearings other than Ducati? $50 each for one-half! That is just plain silly. Or punishing.

How about for a 1300cc Honda CRX engine? It does have a 40mm journal. Or maybe something from a Borgword Isabelle?

Hoping,
MikeV


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 Post subject: Re: Rod Bearings
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:46 pm 
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Mike check with Crower as you can get rods from them… maybe they know another source.
Good luck
Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Rod Bearings
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 9:29 pm 
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Mike, I used Fiat rods in the epicycle. Same size as pantah big end. Not sure about the bearing tags though. May have been on different sides?? Boucher.


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 Post subject: Re: Rod Bearings
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:43 pm 
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Yeh, i see the Fiat 850s have 40mm journals, and are the same thickness in standard size - 1.82mm - as the Ducati bearings. But they are only 16.5mm wide, versus 18 for Ducati. That would be less friction, and shoot more oil under the pistons (tongue in cheek). But maybe a Dremel tool and a file would solve the tab problem? The Honda CRX also has 40mm journals, but having trouble finding more details. May walk into the Honda dealership. They are like Bimota; everything just a tiny bit different so they capture their market. I will bet something from Europe will work. I am going to pursue this thing. MikeV


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 Post subject: Re: Rod Bearings
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:20 pm 
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Well, it is not looking good.

Finally found (after wading thru hundreds of ebay and amazon and summit and revzilla listings) a manufacturer who has a useful, detailed, readable catalog. ACL, out of NZ.

There are some Hondas and VWs with 40mm journals, but the bearings are only 1.5mm or so thick, versus 1.8+ for the Ducatis. No idea what side the tabs are on. Figures.

China?

MikeV


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 Post subject: Re: Rod Bearings
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:17 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 3:02 pm
Posts: 44
Hi Mike!

I found a solution for the 42mm rod bearings used in the larger motors. It came from Toine van den Biggelaar of Biggelaar Racing in Netherlands.

The bearing is from a Toyota 4AG 1600cc motor. The bearing is 42mm, 1.5mm thick and 17mm wide (1mm less than stock Ducati). The only modification is to file down a little bit of the tang to be able to center the bearing.

Early Toyota 4AG motors used a 40mm rod bearing but it is also 1.5mm thick, so it is a no-go for the smaller motors.

I am still looking for a 40mm solution.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Rod Bearings
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:50 pm 
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Bravo Johnny! Sorry, I couldn't resist! Lou


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 Post subject: Re: Rod Bearings
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:58 pm 
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Thanks for the follow-up JB. Yes, I saw a few numbers in the ACL catalog for 42mm bearings, and they looked promising. Just did not chase them down, or mention them, even though I have a few big cranks I intend to use.

For many years Ducati withheld info or availability of the small bearings for the timing belts. It was like a code for a nuclear attack, according to a friend of mine who looked into this. Now some substitutes can be found. I am hoping something for the bearings will appear. $50 each for one-half bearing from Ducati, when entire good quality sets for 4 cylinders can be bought for that! Near criminal to me. Do they not understand that making some replacement parts affordable is a good idea?

MikeV

MikeV


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 Post subject: Re: Rod Bearings
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:38 pm 
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Mike, I have also been put off by the price of Ducati rod inserts for the older Pantah (40mm journal) crankshafts. Have you noticed the inserts for the latest 2 valve engines only cost something like $8-$10? Not sure what the journal size they are.
Anyway, I did a pretty deep investigation into alternative sources for rod shells. The original bearings were supplied by Vandervell, which is, basically, no longer a mass production supplier as far as I can tell. They were bought by Mahle and still exist as a small volume manufacturer of custom made bearings for specialty applications. I sent them an email to inquire about Ducati bearings but received no reply. I imagine they could make the original bearings but probably cost more than the Ducati option, since current Vandervell production is one-off. I have a Ducati ST2 crankshaft that also has Vandervell bearings, so the supply to Ducati continued for many years after the 650 production.
I measured the rod bearing specifications for my 650 Pantah as follows: journal diameter: 40mm, rod bore: 43,7mm, bearing width: 18mm, bearing thickness: 1.8mm. These measurement are not to the level of precision displayed in bearing specification information, which display measurements to .01mm, but close enough for comparisons.
So I downloaded the Glyco specification catalog. Glyco supplies pretty much all of the European OEM automobile market and also has quite a few high volume Japanese applications for the aftermarket. I selected all the small diameter bearings (including the 42mm bearings for the bigger Ducati engines) and searched for same specs as the Ducati bearings. There were a few possibilities but I found that they were mostly for small displacement European cars (often diesels) that were not sold in the USA. These bearings mostly proved to be too narrow. The Glyco specifications are pretty detailed but they do not identify the locating tab configuration, i.e. is the tab on the edge of the shell (as is the Pantah configuration) or inward from the edge of the shell as is also specified on some bearings. In the end, there weren’t many possibilities for bearing shells for automobiles sold in the USA. Most bearings were less than the 18mm width of the Ducati bearing. The only 18mm wide bearings were for a Daihatsu and another set for a Kia Jade. As you have observed, there is a Honda application for the EN4 engine but the width is 17.5mm. I looked at some pics of this bearing on ebay and the tab location appears to be on the edge of the shell, so that is promising. Is giving up .5mm width a problem? The other question is what is the grade of the bearing? I’ll address this in the next paragraph, but, for the OEM Honda bearing, in terms of grade, all I can say is Honda OEM bearings are highly regarded in terms of quality (i.e. grade). So the Honda bearing is a possibility if one is prepared to accept -.5mm in width. Also available from Glyco in .25 and .5mm undersize.
There are several other aftermarket bearing suppliers that offer a wide variety of products, among them Mahle, King Bearing and, notably, Clevite. Clevite has been a high performance bearing supplier for decades. They supply several grades of bearings from passenger car duty to the highest performance racing bearings. Dig deep into the website and there is all sorts of interesting information that I won’t go into here. What is significant about Clevite is this: I have a bearing shell that I purchased from Ducati old dealer stock many years ago. It’s only one shell (need four but there was only one in the inventory) but it’s packaged in plastic shrink wrap on a Cagiva labeled piece of cardboard, in a ”Ducati Motor” plastic zip lock bag. A Ducati part number label is attached, part number 0660.47.230, which you’ll recognize as the bearing shell for 40mm crank journals. The curious thing is, it’s a Clevite bearing. There is a “CL” in a diamond and “112” and “3A” stamped on one end. According to the Clevite information, CL112 identifies this as a certain, high grade classification of bearing. On the other end it’s marked 54834. Perhaps a part number? I wasn’t able to find this number in a Clevite catalog but all the catalogs I looked at were automotive. Next step would be to contact Clevite and inquire if this is a recognized part number or if Clevite can supply a bearing to the Ducati specifications. By the way, the price marked on the part number label is $8.17.


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 Post subject: Re: Rod Bearings
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:57 pm 
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Little late to the dance... but yes it was almost overnight the pantah bearings went from $12 to $47 a few years back.
I think they ran out of inventory and had a batch made.... boom went the price.
I too looked around for alternatives sending off drawings and examples to King bearing. Not cost effective with the limited numbers considering the tooling they would have to make. I just bite the bullet and pay the devil.
You could always do the opposite what we do with the bevels twins and convert to roller :o
-Cranky Roller-


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